Re: [cobalt-developers] Majordomo & capacity

[Jeff Lasman <jblists@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Steve Werby wrote:

> Why not on-list then?  I think your MLM recommendation could benefit others
> on this list.

It would depend on the usage of the list.  For an announcement list of
that size I'd recommend "Subscribe Me" (free) or "Subscribe Me Pro"; my
reticence in saying so onlist is that I'm in the midst of becoming an
affiliate with them; not so saying would be a violation of my personal
integrity, since my recommendation may be seen as skewed; saying so
would get me chided by at least some people on the list.  Oh well. 
Which one of the two?  Well of course I'd recommend Pro; it'll get you
the best level of support as well as additional features.  (Their
website is at "http://cgi.elitehost.com/";; going there directly will NOT
get me any commission <smile>.)

For a discussion list, I'd recommend mailman (http://www.list.org/),
depending on other email needs for the same machine, with either qmail
or postfix as the mta.

For discussion lists of any size mailman offers lots of advantages over
majordomo; read their site for more information.

There have been people arguing both way as to whether or not mailman is
installable on a RaQ.  For the free version of "Subscribe Me" there's an
extended thread, either on this list or on cobalt-users, pointing out
the pitfalls of running large lists on it on a RaQ; as I recall, the
owner of the company chimed in and recommended it be run on a machine
built specifically to be an email server, and not a hosting appliance
such as a Cobalt RaQ.

For the "Subscribe Me Pro" I can only say we had a lot of problems
running it on a RaQ with less than 100,000 email addresses; at that time
the owner of the company recommended we not run it on a RaQ.  We
eventually culled out a lot of addresses, and throttled it down quite a
bit, and it now happily resides on a Raq but not without a lot of
tweaking of both it's settings and sendmail's.

>  If we used others' failure to get something running on a
> Cobalt or the fact that the Cobalt is slower than many other systems as
> justification to go with other systems I think it's safe to assume no one
> would be running Cobalt servers.  <g>

On that I heartily disagree.  We continue to use a lot of Cobalt RaQs;
and even to buy them <smile>.  We just know their limitations and use
them within their limitations.

> True, but other than that we can only speculate about the user base for the
> list.  It could be 100k users across 80k domains or it could be 100k users
> across 5k domains.  Even though one scenario is more likely than the other
> (at least without more info. from the original poster), I think you'll agree
> that the latter scenario will cause less problems than the former and with
> the right MLM, Majordomo in conjunction with one of several programs and/or
> MTA changes a list hosted on a Cobalt will see a very big performance
> improvement over the stock Majordomo on a virgin Cobalt.

This is a hard paragraph to either agree or disagree with...

5,000 domains is still a lot of domains for a list of 100,000.  Yes,
Majordomo with bulk_mailer will run quite a bit better on this than on a
list with 80,000 domains.  But I think it will still have problems with
either.

I agree that other MLMs and other MTAs would run this list better,
perhaps quite a bit better (define better any way you want; I use a
mixture of speed and impact on other services), I disagree that anyone
should try running another MTA on a RaQ.  Too many things to break or go
bump in the night.

> That's a different issue all together.  And there are numerous
> solutions...and the original poster never asked about bounces.

But they're still an important part of the equation.  Lots of bounces to
a machine dedicated to lists will only slow down list delivery; lots of
bounces to an all-purpose web-hosting appliance will result in slowdowns
on all email to all the users, as well as to possible slowdowns in
web-traffic, depending on lots of factors.  And the one seductive
solution that avoids slowing down the system, throwing the bounces away
before delivering them to the machine, will get whoever does that tagged
as a spammer pretty quickly; they s/he loses all connectivity for
his/her clients' email and perhaps web-browsing as well.

> Those are alternatives, but they aren't the only alternatives.  I suppose
> I'm not as quick to rule things out without knowing more details about the
> original poster's list, needs and constraints.  Your solution (whatever it
> might be since you haven't shared it) might be the way to go, but then again
> it might not be an option for the original poster.

Well, I've just shared some solutins, and I guess we're all waiting to
hear again from the original poster.

> And I'll stick with mine.  To refresh your memory, I never stated one
> alternative was right or another was wrong; I just stated I didn't feel we
> had the info. necessary to settle on a solution and I though there was value
> to keeping this thread going *on-list*.  I think you've either taken my
> statements out of context or you need to read them more closely.  In any
> case, I realize this reply has taken too much of my time and probably has
> provided little value to the original poster so I will limit further
> participation in this thread to advice that will help the original poster or
> others with similar needs.

I hope my reply to you will help the original poster; perhaps he'll
chime in and tell us something about his list.

> In the spirit of this now_very_off_topic message I agree 100%,

Actually I think you've gotten it back on topic <smile>.

> but add that
> while there are some sharp regular contributors to that list, those same
> people have very little experience with Majordomo or other MLMs on Cobalt
> servers.  And IMO cobalt-developers is a good forum for getting advice on
> solutions to deliver high volume mail on a Cobalt server.

So let's see how many other Cobalters check in with ideas...  anyone?

Thanks, Steve, for pushing me to explain some of my feelings on this
subject.

Jeff
-- 
Jeff Lasman <jblists@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Linux and Cobalt/Sun/RaQ Consulting
nobaloney.net
P. O. Box 52672, Riverside, CA  92517
voice: (909) 778-9980  *  fax: (702) 548-9484