Re: [cobalt-users] Re: Cobalt Wish List If you must respond tothis do it off the board!

["CobaltList" <cobaltlist@xxxxxxxx>]

> >
> > If you must respond to this do it off the board!
>
> No way, man.  You can't make a post (essentially flaming some people), and
> not expect a public response.  If you posted this in a public forum, you
> should expect that it will be responded to publicly.
>

Ok Fine... I wanted to get this off the list so that people that need to ask
questions that coblat can't answer wouldn't have to read it but if you don't
care then neither do I.  Most of them are Linux Questions anyway....

> > I guess I'll defend myself a little...  In my experience with cobalt I
have
> > found that they don't provide any qualified Tech support.  I can't get
the
> > answers to questions specifically about things like "The GUI" and the
SSL
> > Package they sell and leave you hanging with.  Cobalt products are great
> > appliances and I am very happy with it's performance.  To me the GUI is
> > bonus that turned into a thorn due to lack of support and/or
documentation.
> > I have ask Tech support Simple questions about the GUI only to get
stupid
> > answers back.  I asked about a SSL Error and they said it was a bug and
> > don't worry about that mail everyday???  Later they put a fix in the
> > knowledge base but did they ever let me know???  NO... In Fact I never
get
> > any notices from them about Security or upgrades????  I have to go
looking
> > every once in a while...  It seems clear to me that if you ask a simple
> > question you can expect a stupid answer..  Folks I'm not asking Linux or
DNS
> > or "Your cgi" questions here.  I just expect them to support the
Software
> > that they wrote/compiled/whatever and Sell.
>
> A couple of things:
>
> It has never been the responsibility of the vendor to notify you of
security
> updates and software updates.  I sure wish that Microsoft would email me
> personally every time they found a bug in NT Server.  Very few (if any)
> companies do this level of proactive notification.
>

Cobalt is not microsoft. They are just a little fish, Big fish wannabe.
Their is no reason or excuse for them not to notify their customers via
e-mail... my god this is an internet based product!  Most of which are
connected to the internet 24/7.  Are you telling me they can't make a
mailing list of registared users?  Thats Crap!  Thats Poor Support!

> Hewlett Packard does this for their drivers on NetServers, if you are part
> of the proactive notification programs.
>
Ya and the vet sends me a Postcard when the cat needs shots... Whats your
point.  Again HP is not coblat.

> Asking that Cobalt notify every customer when they fix software is an
> outright unrealistic expectation.  They do, however make announcements in
> the cobalt-announce and cobalt-security lists.  If you want to be made
aware
> of these updates it is *your* responsibility to monitor these lists for
> updates.  That is what they are there for.
>

Yep I know that and I have been Suscribed to the RAQnews list since 3-5-00
and never have I receved anything...  Most likely because they killed the
list...  See if you can find it at
http://www.cobalt.com/support/resources/usergroups.html
And then look at
http://list.cobalt.com/mailman/listinfo/
In Fact they just blew US off...

> This is also the sort of value that is added by purchasing from a VAR.
When
> we worked on the servers we sold, we would apply the necessary security
and
> software updates.
>

So your saying I should go pay more for something I should expect.  This
isn't a game like star-whatever.  This is a real software.  If my accounting
or office software product never upgraded they wouldn't be my accounting or
office software product.  Are you using Dos 3.11?? or did you upgrade... in
case you don't know what that is just substitute win 1.10 or 3.0 whatever
you understand.  and BTW Microsoft continues to make very public annocements
at release time.

> > Finally in case none of you noticed ar perhaps you have all become used
the
> > comments you read here everyday!
>
> I have never had a problem with Cobalt support.  Honestly I don't think
that
> there are many reasons to contact them.  Most problems can be solved by
> RTFM, or the KB or the knowledge base.  And all but the most obscure
> problems should be able to be solved by a competent Systems Engineer.
>

Honestly I don't think that there are many reasons to contact them either
but on those issues they often fail... and I grant you that we don't always
hear about every call that goes well.

> As far as documentation on the GUI, I found that when I was first getting
> myself familiar with the Cobalt interface, the booklet provided what was
> necessary to get started.
>
Yep it's a cute little book.  about the size of a cessna 150 book.  Would
you like to go flying with only that?  Seriosly though it does cover what
the appliance does.  it does not lend any help to the experienced linux pro
that needs to do something on the linux side (Only to find out later the GUI
wiped it all away).

> As far as documentation in general, the software that is running on the
> Cobalt products is off the shelf and open-source.

just the linux related stuff the GUI is not... This is the admin.cgi
# author: Kevin K.M. Chiu
#       Cobalt Networks
# version: 1.0
# date: 12-31-97
#
# Copyright 1997-1999, Cobalt Networks, Inc
# All rights reserved

The documentation for the
> software on the Cobalt system is actually pretty damned good when you take
> that into account.
See Error
If I have a problem with the mailing list software, I
> don't look to Cobalt, I go to the majordomo support resources.
>
And well you should but as you know you can ask a question that has nothing
to do with the appliance aspect on this list.

> > -k  This is an appliance?  Do you have Advanced Knowledge of the GUI and
all
> > Aspects???  Didn't think so. :)
>
> Heh.  My response would actually be more along the lines of:
>
> Regardless of whatever Cobalt or another 'server appliance' company told
> you, running a Server is not something to go into lightly.  Its not rocket
> science, but if you are serious about it, you need to be serious on how
you
> approach the problem.  This means investing money, to make sure you are
> getting the right equipment, and if need be hiring the right people to
help
> you run it.  It also means investing time to learn the required skills in
> running internet services.  By hastily jumping into a industry,
technology,
> and service that you don't have (enough) experiences and expecting it all
to
> work is foolhardy.
>
Well before I respond below I'll tell you a story...

Once upon a time I Bought a linux box from rust.net (Now Verio) and I didn't
know much about linux.  But I was assured that I would be helped with the
admin aspects of it...  I was told to use top to check the system
performance in light of possible High Demands.  I watched it for some time
and thought my site's where doing great.  In fact rust.net told me I was
burning up the pipe! (NOT) after some time I relized that it was having
problems?  I had the Box builder try and fix it 2 or 3 times and then was
finally told I would have to pay about $200 per hour to look at it...  (He
got a new job) Top said my cpu was 0% idle..  So I started getting into
linux deep... I'm a Techs Tech so this was the natural thing to do.... After
some time I discovered the problem!  The Box Builder that assured me that he
was reciving messages form the box never setup an e-mail for root.  The box
had about 60meg of E-mails that it was trying to send somewhere.  I cleaned
up the que and set the e-mail and started to get about 60ish e-mails a day
from it...  One of which was a Build time error that the box builder should
of gotten on day 1.  So how much do you think I should of paid for the box
builder to do something he should of done on day 1?  Now I feel safe with
linux and it was one of the main reasons I got a cobalt product.  It looks
good, Stacks in a rack Great, has a simmple construction, small power
supply, Expandable and I love it.  I just have to except that if I want to
learn what the GUI is doing to files inside I will have to go over all the
code... and I don't have time to do that.  Sure I listen to people but I do
follow up all comments to verify them myself.  Cobalts support to me has
been about the same.  Nothing but stupid answers.  Why then would I want to
go ahead and pay for somebody stupid to work on my box?  Get Real!

> Regardless if someone tells me that (using an automotive analogy)  'doing
a
> electronic four wheel alignment is easy', I'm not going to go out and
start
> up my own suspension shop.  I am technically inclined, but don't have the
> necessary experience to offer professional services to others in that
field.
> And if I did decide to start a shop, and bought the computer/peice of
> equipment than does much of the work for you, I wouldn't start running it
> myself and get upset I couldn't figure out how to set up a camber kit on
95
> Civic.  And I certainly wouldn't join a 'Alignmaster 5000' mailinglist and
> get irritated at the equipment.  It is your responsibility to be
> knowledgeable about the industry.
>

I am and I have been online longer then I can remember.... somewhere around
300 and 1200 baud modems or around 1988...

> Or a better anology would be a computer-controled piano company.  The
piano
> is preprogrammed to make a lot of great music.  And anyone can learn to
play
> it as well.  But to think that a beginner piano player will have the same
> success and quality level of someone who has been playing for years is
> downright foolish.
>
> Obviously you didn't do your due diligence before purchasing this
> equipment-

BUZZ!!! WRONG!!!
did anyone ever tell you about assumptions?

I Checked them out from top to bottom before I made the purchace.  I felt
the box was sound, I Like the Mips, and alot of other things... I was very
dissapointed to find poor support afterward.

-another thing that buying from a VAR would help out with.  They
> can tell you if your expectations are unreasonable, and help you pick (or

> not pick) the right equipment for your needs.
>
> The Cobalt machines are, in my opinion a great *tool* for offering
internet
> services.  It is not, however, a replacement for a qualified engineer.
>
> Does anyone ever wonder why it is that a decent engineer makes the kind of
> money they make?  Its because it takes a significant investment in time,
> money, to become experienced.  And a Cobalt server is a great way to baby
> start learning, (to quote JMZ, who was refereeing to open source, but I
> think would be applicable here) but "is not magic pixie dust".
>
True but it is a very easy box that even the secratary should be able to
use.  Right down to installing software...  Maybe this will help you... They
are loosing mony by not charging for things like PGP, PHP, MySql etc by not
making packages and charging for them like they did with SSL and ASP.  Not
only is that bad support but bad Biz.  Bottom Line they just don't have the
support team to do that.  They just sell them and leave you almost hung.


Zeffie

This letter took to much of my time up....