Re: [cobalt-users] Re: Cobalt Wish List If you must respond tothis do it off the board!

[Kris Dahl <krislists@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

> Ok Fine... I wanted to get this off the list so that people that need to ask
> questions that coblat can't answer wouldn't have to read it but if you don't
> care then neither do I.  Most of them are Linux Questions anyway....

This is a Linux machine running Open Source software.  Of course they are
going to mostly be Linux questions.  The interface works well enough that
most people don't have to ask something like "I can't figure out how to set
up an email alias on the GUI."

>> A couple of things:
>> 
>> It has never been the responsibility of the vendor to notify you of
> security
>> updates and software updates.  I sure wish that Microsoft would email me
>> personally every time they found a bug in NT Server.  Very few (if any)
>> companies do this level of proactive notification.
>> 
> 
> Cobalt is not microsoft. They are just a little fish, Big fish wannabe.
> Their is no reason or excuse for them not to notify their customers via
> e-mail... my god this is an internet based product!  Most of which are
> connected to the internet 24/7.  Are you telling me they can't make a
> mailing list of registared users?  Thats Crap!  Thats Poor Support!

They do email customers.  I told you about the announce lists, as did Lyle!
It is not Cobalt's responsibility to seek you out and let you know that you
really should apply this new security patch.  You need to meet them half
way.  They make the announcements, you have to listen to them.

Its not just Cobalt that does this, but Apple, RedHat, IBM, Sun, *every*
software company that I can think of does not email or contact every single
one of their users to let them know of an upgrade.  All of the above
mentioned do, however, make it widely known in the proper channels.

>> Hewlett Packard does this for their drivers on NetServers, if you are part
>> of the proactive notification programs.
>> 
> Ya and the vet sends me a Postcard when the cat needs shots... Whats your
> point.  Again HP is not coblat.

I'm just saying that programs like this do exist, but you have to initiate
contact and request the information be sent to you.  When you buy a Raq,
they don't ask you for your email address do they?  You have to fill out the
registration card for Cobalt to even know who you are.  And honestly, I
don't want them contacting me specifically for anything--that is a good way
to get unsolicited SPAM.  I do however watch BugTraq, etc., the RedHat,
Cobalt announce lists, etc., just as every other Engineer I know.

Why is it that you're the only one who thinks that the normal channels for
announcing patches, etc. isn't good enough?

If you want to make improvements, by all means, start your own security list
(like BugTraq did).

> Yep I know that and I have been Suscribed to the RAQnews list since 3-5-00
> and never have I receved anything...  Most likely because they killed the
> list...  See if you can find it at
> http://www.cobalt.com/support/resources/usergroups.html
> And then look at
> http://list.cobalt.com/mailman/listinfo/
> In Fact they just blew US off...

What the hell is Raqnews?  I'm talking about cobalt-security and
cobalt-announce.

That would be the security list and the cobalt announcement lists.  The two
places where, of all things, security and announcements (respectively) are
discussed or announced (respectively).  It isn't rocket science.

I don't blame you for not being aware, but I do hold you accountable for
being lame about it.


>> This is also the sort of value that is added by purchasing from a VAR.
> When
>> we worked on the servers we sold, we would apply the necessary security
> and
>> software updates.
>> 
> 
> So your saying I should go pay more for something I should expect.  This
> isn't a game like star-whatever.  This is a real software.  If my accounting
> or office software product never upgraded they wouldn't be my accounting or
> office software product.  Are you using Dos 3.11?? or did you upgrade... in
> case you don't know what that is just substitute win 1.10 or 3.0 whatever
> you understand.  and BTW Microsoft continues to make very public annocements
> at release time.

I am saying support is a *huge* cost of owning a piece of equipment.  Cobalt
has a much lower TCO (total cost of ownership) than standard microsoft
servers.  They also cost less.  It doesn't mean that priority, higher level
support is free?

I don't understand people who think that everything is supposed to be cheap
or free.  Experience isn't cheap.  If you want priority support, you should
be prepared to pay the price (and this goes for everything).

If I buy a truck from, say Kenworth, I don't expect them to help me with
traffic laws (basic internet guidelines, protocols, etc.) or how to drive
(configure and operate software), and they certainly don't help me out with
how to run a Interstate Trucking Business (ISP).  They provide you with an
interface (steering wheel, gas pedal, clutch, brake pedal, shifter) and the
equipment (the raq).  If you want to be in the Tucking Business, you either
go to trucking school (become an owner/operator) or hire some damned
truckers!  It is that simple.  Now if the truck breaks down, or the steering
wheel stops working you would contact the factory, or if you want expedited
service you contact a company like Motor Trucks (they have tow trucks, open
24 hours, etc.) or Les Schuab (which has staff that will come out and fix
your tire if you have a blowout).

I seriously can't even fathom why people think that the Internet is easier
or different than the rest of the capitalist world.
  
>> As far as documentation on the GUI, I found that when I was first getting
>> myself familiar with the Cobalt interface, the booklet provided what was
>> necessary to get started.
>> 
> Yep it's a cute little book.  about the size of a cessna 150 book.  Would
> you like to go flying with only that?  Seriosly though it does cover what
> the appliance does.  it does not lend any help to the experienced linux pro
> that needs to do something on the linux side (Only to find out later the GUI
> wiped it all away).

Well, I wouldn't go out and purchase a Cesna and expect to be able to fly it
based on the owners manual.  See my above analogy.  If you want to learn to
fly, you buy the equipment, and either a) hire a pilot or b) hire an
instructor.  Both are excellent options, and but both are a significant cost
of keeping an airplane.  I think you are being outright unrealistic in that
Cobalt has to document how to be an ISP.

If I bought a Cesna and started complaining on the Cesna mailing lists about
Censa not showing me how to operate an airplane, they wouldn't have much
sympathy for me.  The same goes here.

To further the analogy, if you bought from a Cesna reseller (I think they
exist) they could certainly help you either a) learn to fly or b) find a
pilot.  And if you had a problem they would help you with it, by sending a
mechanic to your hanger.  This is the function served by a VAR.

Further, Cesna is required by Federal law to notify owners of its airplanes
of Airworthiness Directives, which often involve a recall (security list).
Similar to your security notices.  They also occasionally announce other
issues that should be fixed on the planes (announce list).  Only we're
talking about a very expensive piece of equipment with slightly higher
importance (lives depend) so they are a little more strict about contacting
the customer if there is a problem.


>> don't look to Cobalt, I go to the majordomo support resources.
>> 
> And well you should but as you know you can ask a question that has nothing
> to do with the appliance aspect on this list.

The appliance is the software, packaged with a GUI.  No body ever has much
of a problem with the GUI, so we talk about the software.

> been about the same.  Nothing but stupid answers.  Why then would I want to
> go ahead and pay for somebody stupid to work on my box?  Get Real!

That sucks that you had such a poor experience.  This is why it is so
important to choose a very good VAR.  If we didn't perform the level of
service you required, you didn't get charged.  However, if we performed, you
were responsible for the tab.  It is too bad that other shops don't perform
that way.


> -another thing that buying from a VAR would help out with.  They
>> can tell you if your expectations are unreasonable, and help you pick (or
> 
>> not pick) the right equipment for your needs.
>> 
>> The Cobalt machines are, in my opinion a great *tool* for offering
> internet
>> services.  It is not, however, a replacement for a qualified engineer.
>> 
>> Does anyone ever wonder why it is that a decent engineer makes the kind of
>> money they make?  Its because it takes a significant investment in time,
>> money, to become experienced.  And a Cobalt server is a great way to baby
>> start learning, (to quote JMZ, who was refereeing to open source, but I
>> think would be applicable here) but "is not magic pixie dust".
>> 
> True but it is a very easy box that even the secratary should be able to
> use.  Right down to installing software...  Maybe this will help you... They
> are loosing mony by not charging for things like PGP, PHP, MySql etc by not
> making packages and charging for them like they did with SSL and ASP.  Not
> only is that bad support but bad Biz.  Bottom Line they just don't have the
> support team to do that.  They just sell them and leave you almost hung.

I agree that a secretary should be able to administrate one of these
machines.  Set up email accounts, etc.

But I still think that a engineer is necessary to run a professional
internet service, update software, make sure everything is running smoothly.

Perhaps it shouldn't be that way, but right now it is.  Every ISP in the
country is run by engineers, not secretaries.  This is for a reason--at this
time and day it is a requirement.

Many of the ISPs invest significant amount of resources into building
interfaces that let their customer service reps, etc. maintain the mundane
stuff, email accounts, billing, new accounts, etc that don't require the
high-level skillset.  But a highly complicated and techncial industry still
requires knowledgeable experts.  Sad but true.

-k