Re: [cobalt-users] Status of the Cobalt Mailing Lists

[Jeff Lasman <blists@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

On Wednesday 05 May 2004 09:58 pm, SM wrote:

> I would like to ask you to at least keep the archive online if Sun
> goes ahead with their decision to close this list.  Alternatively,
> could you leave it online until the end of the month to allow people
> to download the complete archive?

I'd love to see the archives stay online, in fact I'd love to see the 
whole list stay online, but it's a self-serving love; all those 
referrals from my sig help in my site ranking with Google <wry grin>.

Everone of us who posts with a sig with a website reference benefits the 
same way.

That said, it's NOT going to happen.

As far as continuing access is concerned, the archives have already been 
scraped and there are at least two other archive groups now running.  
They've posted here; that's how I found them.  I'll repost them in a 
recap thread later, if necessary.

> For privacy reasons, I object to have the list of subscribers
> transferred to any unofficial mailing list that may be set up as a
> replacement.  I suggest that you send an email with a list of the
> various lists that have been set up and let the subscribers decide
> which one(s) to join.

As far as replacement lists are concerned, that's an important 
consideration.

As far as moving the list is concerned, I don't think that's what moving 
the list means, though you may.

There are advantages to the new list owner to reauthenticate the list, 
though, since that way s/he has proof in her/his system that each 
subscriber is opt-in.

> Having several lists is not in the interest of the Cobalt community
> and can only create a fractured community.

I agree.  And that's why I'm NOT interested in setting up a list that 
people would choose to join.  I'm only intertested in moving this list, 
with it's members and archives, to another domain name to keep it 
running.

> Some of the people
> hosting mailing lists offer Cobalt related services.

Since I do offer Cobalt related services I was very happy when Ryan 
Verner offered to host the lists; he doesn't offer Cobalt related 
services.  I was very happy when Bruce Timberlake told me he'd be 
willing to be the list-owner, since, while he does some Cobalt 
consulting, he's a very helpful and well-respected member of this 
community.

Where does that put me?  As a hard working facilitator, someone with the 
vision and the ability to do some of the work to make it happen.

> Their
> competitors may not like the idea of the person taking control of the
> whole list.

I agree with you on this as well.  But I don't see myself as doing that.  
Do you?  Is this a vote for me to not move the list?  Note that if I 
move the list it's only because I decided to do the hard work; the list 
"owner" would be Bruce Timberlake, who previously ran the list while it 
was at Sun Cobalt, until he got laid off there.

Note also that Sun Cobalt certainly offered Cobalt related services, and 
has since decided to not continue the list because they don't any 
longer offer such services.  All current Cobalt lists that I know of 
are operated at least under the co-ownership or co-sponsorship of 
someone offering Cobalt related products and/or services.

Personally, I've always thought the best possible candidate for 
list-ownership going into the future would be Bruce Timberlake, and he 
and I first discussed this when Sun first announced the EOL of Cobalt 
products; we knew this day would eventually come.

We also discussed this (on the telphone) yesterday, before I wrote here 
that I could move it and he could run it.

Nevertheless, unless you clarify, I will count your vote for me to not 
move the list.  I'm going to set up a poll this morning and will post 
the poll address to the list later this day.

> To the people offering an alternative to this list, I would like to
> ask about whether your list will have the same charter and be like
> this one.

I'm offering not an alternative, but a plan to move the list.  My list 
will have the same charter to the greatest extent possible, except that 
it will not be owned by a Corporate entity, so some of the actual 
wording of actual documents may need to be rewritten.

Not only will it have the same charter, but it will have the same 
list-owner who saw it through a very successful period.

> Given that you are using your resources to host the list,
> you may be inclined to add an advertising tagline to each email. :)

Ryan Verner is offering his resources; I won't be hosting the list.  
Even if I were I wouldn't add advertising taglines; I've been hosting 
lists, both free and paid-for, since the late 1980s.  I've never added 
a commercial tagline to any posts, though I've certainly allowed 
listowners to do so, as is their option.  I ran qube-users for several 
years, and I never added a tagline; in fact since I don't own a qube, I 
almost never intruded; it was a simple gift to the qube community.


> It may be difficult to resist the urge to unsubscribe people who do
> not follow RFC 1855. :)

In my opinion there are parts of RFC 1855 
(http://www.dtcc.edu/cs/rfc1855.html) that should be cause for 
unsubscription if violated; for example "Forgeries and spoofing are not 
approved behavior."

I have in the past unsubscribed people from lists but only on request of 
the list-owner and only after repeated attempts to get the behavior 
corrected were ignored.

I can't remember ever unsubscribing anyone from a list where I was the 
list-owner.

As far as I'm concerned, here's the most relevant part of RFC 1855, 
right at the top:

<snip>
 This memo provides information for the Internet community. This memo 
does not specify an Internet standard of any kind.
</snip>

Jeff
-- 
Jeff Lasman, nobaloney.net, P. O. Box 52672, Riverside, CA  92517 US
Professional Internet Services & Support / Consulting / Colocation
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