RE: [cobalt-users] Status of the Cobalt Mailing Lists

["David J. Duffner - NWCWEB.com" <cobalt@xxxxxxxxxx>]

>-----Original Message-----
>From: cobalt-users-admin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
>[mailto:cobalt-users-admin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] 
>Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 4:12 PM
>To: cobalt-users@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; 
>cobalt-security@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; cobalt-developers@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [cobalt-users] Status of the Cobalt Mailing Lists
>
>Because the unplanned outage of the Cobalt lists this weekend 
>seems to have caused another flurry of "what now?" emails, I guess it is 
>time to address this issue for good.

	Unfortunately I raised this original point, but that was
based on conversations you (Craig) and I had awhile back during
one of the last outages.  I remember at that point your mentioning
the giant pain (and I understand completely) it was dealing with
everything as it stands.  Also noting the fact that the server
was in a position in a building where rebooting and restoring it
was not an easy option at all times, including the weekends.

	Let me clarify that in my original post where I asked the
ultimate 'what now', which I thought was answered, my intentions
were to determine if this valuable List and the Cobalt resources
were actually headed for a new home somewhere and if someone had
a clue as to that status.  It was not intended in any way to start
a firestorm and bring the conclusion we're faced with today.

>I think that it is time for these lists to go away.  Several 
>reasons for this:
>
>1) RaQ 550, the last Sun Cobalt branded product, reached its 
>End of Life in February 2004.  Sun has committed to certain
>support guidelines as part of our EOSL policy, including maintaining
>the knowledgebase and Support Forums located at
>http://cobalt-forum.sun.com/forum/ for three full years.

	Question:  While I agree that Sun (and you as the Admin)
have a need to eliminate the hassles, can't we all collectively
find a new home for all this information and transfer it there?

	The Lists, at least this one in my opinion, are of value
and while I'm the first in line to go to an HTML Forum-based 
setup vs. text lists, especially when the flamewars and OT's 
tend to fill up an e-mail box (and I have too many to monitor
as do many of you I'm sure).  I've tried in vain with many clients
to turn them into Forums, but there are too many people who 
prefer the 'reflector-style' of e-mail.  And, quite honestly, I
don't have the time (as many of you) to jump around to Forums 
on websites just to see what's going on.  So the text-based e-mail
Lists apparently need to stay their course.  Whether that be by
Sun or a 3rd Party, they do need to stay.

>2) I have had an ongoing problem with users of the lists 
>demanding that I delete or modify their posts in the list archives.
>I have been unable to come up with an answer to those requests that
>satisfies the users, me, and the maintainers of Sun's Privacy Policy.

	That's news to me, personally that's completely nuts and
I can't figure who in their right mind wants a post changed.  Once
you hit the <SEND>, it's gone and you live with what you post.  Good,
bad or indifferent.  I've personally never had such requests hit my
desk and I'd flat-out reject any such request based on the above?  I
have had the occassional complaint to remove a post based on content,
and there are times that needs to happen, but to modify a post or 
delete it without just cause for content as a request is insane.

>3) The system on which the lists are hosted is not getting any 
>younger, and as many of you noticed this weekend is not very reliable.
>It is probably not going to be replaced -- see item #1 above.  Virus
>and spam traffic into the server is also out of control and it would
>require significant effort to put decent filtering in place and then
>maintain the filters indefinitely.

	Granted, acknowledged and with the outrageous amount of attacks
and junk we've seen on our (considerably) smaller systems you are 100%
on the nose.  If it lives at Sun, it's not a part-time job to maintain.

>My plan is to shut the cobalt-users, cobalt-security, and 
>cobalt-developers lists down on Friday, May 14.

	Ouch!  Not a chance you'd hang through the end of the month
if an alternative 'mirror' location was arranged outside of Sun?
Since everything's gone fully or semi-open source as it appears, 
one would think the movement option the best course of action to 
preserve everything?  10 days is a bit short to move and repoint
anything successfully without a major undertaking.

>I am open to suggestions about other ways Sun can continue to 
>support the Cobalt user community.  One option already mentioned has
>been a Sun Cobalt area on the BigAdmin systems administration portal

	Me, again personally, have always found it hard to wander 
through the BigAdmin section and find what I'm looking for in a 
reasonable amount of time.  If that's the only option, it would be
functional, but it would seem that a 3rd Party intrested in supporting
the Cobalt Community as a whole and continuing all this would do the
job far better as they have more of a hands-on interest than a company
who only has EOL obligations holding them in a position to continue.

	That being said, please do not take that as a slight to Sun or
anything you've done with maintaining these Lists.  I'm basing that
statement from your post in which you outline Sun's current commitments
and their mindset as to support.

	Gang, we've got a multitude of groups out there like CobaltFacts
and others who are writing software alternatives, packages and so much
more.  Having one 'portal' allowing not only these Lists to continue
but also allowing all those groups to at least link together for a 
one-stop resource center sure seems like the best way to fly?

      David J. Duffner
      VP Operations
      NWC Corporation
      NWCWEB.com
      
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