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Re: [cobalt-developers] [ISP Related] RadiusX for Cobalt RaQ2/3 Testing

Greg, you make excellent points, and I wish to respond to some of them. I'll start by taking one of your points out of context, so as to set the stage: 

At 06:08 PM 2/15/00 -0500, you wrote:

> You have to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges.

Absolutely <smile>...

Now I can go on <smile, again>...
> The advantage of what the consultant did was he gave us a complete install, 
> PHP, Radius, MySQL, running on the box.  He did all the work.  I think I'd
> like seeing such an RPM, myself.

PHP Rpms        - http://www.modssl.org/contrib/
MySQL Rpms      - http://www.mysql.org/download_3.22.html
Radius          - http://www.freeradius.org/
Radius w/ MySQL + Web Front End - ftp://ftp.cheapnet.net/pub/icradius/
But of course after doing this (and I'm only presuming you mean I should do all this in this particular order), I still don't have an ssl-protected website with a point and click interface for adding and modifying customers. That's what the consultant gave us. 


And if you want to do E-commerce, just scrap the RedHat Apache RPMS and
grab the apache_modssl drop in replacements off of modssl.org's site.
There are what we use in production on boxes that need more specialized
applications than the Raq can provide.
From your paragraph, repeated above, I got the impression there were RPMs, RaQ-ready, on this site. There aren't. I've got no problem installing from tarballs on my server, but a lot of RaQ owners do; see the cobalt-users list for the clue-level of many RaQ owners (not meant to be any kind of put-down; merely an observation of the fact that Cobalt's advertising of the RaQs as appliances is paying off for them <smile>).
But personally, I run Red Hat's 6.0 secure web server on a generic (home-built, in fact) multi-processor intel-based box, and I'm going to get a Red Hat 6.1 Professional box done this week. I don't "love" Red Hat, but I do like the plug-and-play concept; after all, it's what attracted me to the RaQs in the first place.
I don't own any RaQs outright, I rent one, and might eventually rent or buy more. I've always felt the design philosophy is great, and I love the form-factor and the low power consumption. But I've always felt the MIPS architecture was too nonstandard to invest in. And I find the web-based interface quite limiting as it doesn't fit with my business model at all (we don't allow our customers to choose to run or not run mailing lists, to add users at will, and to control logon names).
Now that Cobalt is switching to Intel architecture, I will seriously look at RaQ3s as I need to expand further. I can always reinstall Linux software from scratch and create a system that more nearly matches what I do.
I've got the following installed on my RaQ2; all installed as part of consultant-driven solution by my colocation source: 

  Cobalt OS Release 4.0
  Miva Empresa Release 3.62
  Miva Merchant Bundle Package (RaQ2) Release 2.00
  RaQ2-Update-OS Release 2.0
  Red Hat Secure Web Server Release 3
And though I know how to be very hands-on, I don't always have the time. So, yes, I'm very happy to have someone else do most of this for me. 


As for the other stuff, I've used it on RedHat boxes as well as just about
every other Linux distro out there. It all works with a bit of tweaking.

> My statement about selling it for a good
> deal less than $1500 was meant to be tongue-in-cheek.  I just wanted to
> point out that having an "expert" install a complete open-source solution
> seemed both cheaper and "better" than buying a retail solution.

You have to compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. If you are
going to install Cistron, ICradius, or Livingston's Radius, you are
getting a bare bones radius server that you can extend if you want to.
None of these (except perhaps Cistron) come with the advanced features
that RadiusX (Or RadiusNT) from IEA-Software come with. Absolutely NONE of
them will interface with Microsoft SQL. While they may form one component
in a chain for your billing and authentication "system", they are
individual, seperate products that are not designed to work together. On
the other hand, RadiusX from IEA works with their complete ISP management
back-end, which works TRANSPARENTLY with Linux, SCO or just about anything
on the planet. I'm PARTICULARLY pleased to see that they are not
supporting the Cobalt RAQ products, as I have been beating on Dale Reed
(The Author of Emerald and RadiusNT) to port the backend to Linux for
nearly 3 years now.
And the solution I chose (I was with Jatek at the time) worked for Jatek's business model, and still does. Jatek doesn't aggressively sell dialup; they make nationwide (Megapop) dialup available to their hosting customers. It had to be a quick and simple solution. In fact we almost went with Megapops generic web-based solution, as I recall. 


> Last year I discussed this on one of the Internet lists.  We were
> terminating people who were late. Everyone came down against me. It seems > that a large number of ISPs feel that one major difference between the "big > guy" ISPs and the little people like us is that we can be more flexible and 
> work with people on payments.  At the time we loosened up our late-payment
> policies quite a bit.

On the other hand, we have made the transition from a small to a large ISP
and we can't afford to have people not paying for services they are using.
It took some training to get the customers used to the idea that if they
don't pay, they don't get access, but after a while you weed out the bad
seed and stick with the good. As a result, my cash flow is very steady,
and my receivables are extremely low.
I'm not disagreeing here at all; I'm just reporting what other people told me. Obviously there are a lot of different feelings on this issue, and Jatek chose to loosen up it's late-payment policies (I had no control over that aspect of Jatek, and I've since left over management disagreements that made it impossible for me to work there as a department head). 


The IEA Emerald billing manager has completely eliminated the need to keep
track of the intergration between Accounting, RADIUs Authentication and
UNIX account creation. If a customer is past-due, the RADIUS server knows
based on it's database backend that the customer should not be allowed
acccess to the network.

Intergrated CC billing, batch E-mailing of invoices and all the "goodies"
have virtually eliminated the need to have highly trained "technical"
staff doing the simple tasks of adding accounts. This can be handled by
the low end help-desk people. They add the account in Emerald, and with a
couple of clicks, the account is active and ready to go. The information
is replicated from MS-SQL to our LDAP servers, which allow our Linux boxes
to use NSS-Ldap for authentication purposes.

This is a HUGE win. If a server fails in production, all I need to do is
stick in a replacement w/ the same IP and point it's LDAP entry towards
the master server. BINGO. Instant replacement servr.
And I believe that when I'm ready for this kind of solution, I'll want one, too. It's been my experience that most of the RaQ owners I've come across are not in your league; maybe I'm wrong. 


> I'm still in the throes of a startup, and my cash flow, while almost
> adequate <smile> isn't always smooth.  So I enjoy a more flexible policy
> myself <smile, again>.

In 1992, I started an ISP with 2 486 computers in my basement, running
SCO. No one knows more about cash flow and tight budgets than me. I've
hacked just about every piece of free software on the planet related to
the provision of ISP services. I assist in providing patches to the Linux
port of the Merit AAA Radius server. If it isn't out there, I find
something that fits closely and modify it. This is the beauty of Open
Source. This is the flexibility of OpenSource. This is what makes the fact
that Cobalt is basing their product on Linux such an enourmous gain for
people with the knowledge.
I began using SCO-Xenix back in it's early days, too; somewhere around the late 80s. I studied it as a platform for supplying multi-user business management systems for the garment manufacturing industry, which is what I was doing then (Microsoft didn't make a good multi-user solution then; they still don't <wry grin>). 


But there is a whole section of people out there that don't want, need or
have the time to hack the source themselves. They are called "end users"
and not "hackers". There are also us "hackers" that don't have the time to
modify every piece of software that comes along. If a commercial piece of
software does the job with minimal effort, it is worth the long term
savings in development and code maintenance.
I agree with everything in this statement. In fact the reason I chose a consultant to install the system that started this whole discussion was that I didn't have the time to do it all myself. 


> >I am greatly simplifying it, but for users of the Emerald billing package,
> >having RadiusX available to run on the Linux platform instead of IEA's
> >RadiusNT on NT removes one more dependence on a Microsoft product.
>
> Obviously it works for you.  But... while you're saying that using RadiusX
> with Emerald removes a dependency on a Microsoft product, it seems to me
> that depending on another package rather than Emerald could remove your
> dependencies even further <grin>.


Just curious?  Did you notice my <grin>?
I'm a tool-user myself, and my desktops are all Microsoft (combination of WinNT and Win98); I'll change to Linux desktops when all the tools I want to use every day are available on them, not before (and for those who will argue I can find similar tools, I'll just say, "why bother? what I'm using now works for me").
> Of course you've decided to go with Emerald, and obviously, for you, that's 
> fine.  And you've decided to go with RadiusX.  For you, again, that's fine.

After 4 years of using Free Radius servers, running an accounting system
on QuickBooks for some 5,000 users, my decision is based on experience.
I think so. Quickbooks isn't a solution for 500 users, no less 5,000. At the moment my solution is a modification of some software I wrote years ago in a language called DataFlex, back when I was president of the DataFlex Professionals' Guild. And no, it doesn't do everything. I'll put in a more robust solution at some point, I'm sure. If it ever becomes important to me to link my Radius into my accounting, I'll do it. As I said, I'm a tool-user. 


Something that you admit to having very little of based on the comments
that you hired a consultant to setup RADIUS and you are in "startup mode".
I just typed four long paragraphs explaining my experience, and decided they were out of place for this list, so I deleted them. Suffice it to say I've got more experience in this business than I've indicated in one post. I began an Internet Presence Provider in 1994, and sold it in 1994. I just left Jatek over business and management issues; Jatek was my second Internet Provider; though I didn't found Jatek (it was twelve years old when I joined it), I did direct it toward the Internet industry.
This is my third Internet business, my money needs are small at this point; if I wanted to I could do very well working part time, 20 hours a week, as a telephone support representative, for a low-tech company about two miles from home (as friends of mine in the retirement community in which I live are already doing). I'm doing this as much for the fun as for the money (although I love money <smile>).
I don't claim to know more or less than anyone else. I pointed out in my last post that your decisions are no doubt right for you. I'm hoping you'll let me think my decisions are right for me (unless of course, I hire you as a consultant, and ask you to tell me what I'm doing wrong <smile>). 


You might well take the advice that others have "been there, done that,
moved on" and consider it for the future of your business.
Okay, I've already said that if I reach your point, I'll probably do things similarly. I really don't think now is the time for me to invest in that kind of solution, though.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm not. I may be a few years older than you are; I've seen success (and yes, failure, too) happen so many different ways, I no longer believe there is a right or wrong.
I chose a consultant to implement the solution in place at Jatek because I didn't have time to do it myself, our techs were busy as well (and aren't even yet well-versed in Linux), and I didn't want to hire someone full time. I know I got my money's worth. 


RadiusX is based on Livingston's RADIUS source code. But it has been
highly modified to fit the commercial needs of high volume ISP providers.
Ergo, the up-front cost of the product is balanced by the savings in
development and code maintenance. If you were to hack all the good stuff
that RadiusX has into Cistron, or Livingston's radius, you would have at
LEAST a 6 month development and testing cycle before you got the first
working alpha out the door.
Again, if and when I become a high-volume ISP, I'll be interested. I still don't think most of the people on these RaQ lists are; maybe I'm wrong. 


I am all for free software. I provide solutions to my customers every day
based on free software. Indeed, a large portion of my revenue is generated
by LINUX related consulting work. In return, I give back plenty to the
Linux community. But I also realize from a business perspective that the
strength of Free Software lies in it's ability to intergrate -WITH- other
programs, wether they are free OR commercial. You choose the piece of
software for the job based on the needs that you have and the criteria
that you set. Dismissing one, or the other limits your choices. I'm about
choice.. choosing wether to use free software or not.. wether to develop
free software or not..


So we agree on a lot, don't we <smile>?

Jeff

--
Jeff Lasman <jblists@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>