Re: [cobalt-users] rant not, just loosen up

[Kris Dahl <kris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

on 11/29/99 4:23 PM, Davis at rdavis@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

> 1)
>> (Remember that some users pay by the minute to stay online).
> 
> Who the crap pays by the minute? I can't imagine why. For fifteen lousy
> bucks a month, you can get unlimited time. That's a bargain for anyone in
> our line of work.

True, but this is not really what we are talking about.  Download times are
considered important to some (not me)... especially if someone is using POP.
It is a legitimate concern.
 
> 2)
>> don't post HTML or binaries.
> 
> Who can't read HTML mail? I can't imagine why not. It looks neat. Come on,
> loosen up. Today's browser breakdown from StatMarket says that 78% of net
> surfers use IE4 or better, and another 19% use Netscape 4 or better. That's
> 97% of everyone using browser which are free and which come with HTML mail.
> Why not climb out of the stone age and join them?

Those are some important demographic information about web users in general,
but doesn't exactly pertain to technically knowledgeable developers.  Of
which, a significant number of users use Pine and other 'non-mainstream'
mail clients for various reasons (remote capabilites, etc.) ASCII Text is a
standard.  HTML email is not.

If you want to go on a crusade and write a RFC to make HTML the standard
format for all TEXT based messaging systems (Newsgroups, email,
etc.)--that'd be great!  I think that we could use a updating of the
standard.  But until then, lets go with the standard, universally accepted,
almost universally adopted methods of posting.

 
> 3)
>> The "why?" of the above guidelines has been done to death over the
>> years, and believe me there's nothing much changed in the last few
>> years that means that it's now better to put your response before
>> the quote.
> 
> Do I care whether you quote before or after? I can't imagine why.
> Personally, I prefer to intercalate a reply (intercalation is sticking your
> stuff in between the other stuff, where it pertains, like this).

I completely agree.  You'll find that intercalating is a subset of quoting
after the text.  The goal is to optimize readability.

> 4)
>> The ultimate answer to "why?" is that in following the above guidelines
>> you are demonstrating a degree of courtesy and respect for the other
>> people on the mailing list.
> 
> OK, so I try to remember to post plain text, just so that some unix geek
> with the prickly heat does not burst into rant. That's for politeness. But
> don't pretend that it matters. It doesn't. I am only interested in someone
> who can make sense well put. Spell it right, put a verb in it, make it
> short, get to the point. That matters. Whether he uses a GIF for his
> cartouche or quotes Emerson at length for his closing motto is only his way
> of dressing up his stationery. What's wrong with dressing up? I like color.
> I even like a Hawaiian shirt, myself. Wear one two or three times a week.
> Hey, I even like Emerson. He makes far more sense than an ascii emoticon.

Only problem is that this is a Unix mailing list.  Albeit one that has most
questions coming from Win32 and Macintosh users.

Color is fine.  When it helps readability.  Unfortunately, you'll find that
the last thread was anything but readable.  Noone was using the HTML to help
readability.  Just hitting that reply button and using the default HTML text
doesn't necessarily mean you're helping readability--or color coding.  It
means that you haven't taken responsibility to make sure that you are
participating in a conversation based on the accepted and adopted standards
of communication.

> Or, maybe I should put the question the other way around:
> 
> Why are unix gurus so enamored of plain ascii? It's just plain.

Well, I have found that computer geeks are by and large (haven't found an
exception yet) are LAZY.  Prime example: Why do you think they are in a
hurry to build this online commerce stuff (most of it has been unprofitable
so far)--they want everything delivered to their couch!

Part of being lazy also is being precise, optimized and efficient.  Don't
waste any more calories than is necessary.  Currently, to exchange textual
information, ASCII is king.  HTML text doesn't offer any advantage as
currently implemented.  If, however, Microsoft, Netscape, Eudora build
decent thread management into their email clients that automatically format
threads there could be a reason to switch.  For example, Outlook Express for
the Mac actually colors threads and replies on the client side--way
cool--and it could be implemented in the actual replies and messages with
HTML mail.

I didn't start this thread because I have a vendetta against HTML.  I
started it because things were getting out of control the communication was
breaking down.  Its just a result of people were not realizing what they
were doing.  All that should be necessary is a little reminder to those who
are new to communicating like this.

One feature pretty much universal on the popular clients is 'Reply to
messages in format in which they were sent'.  That should always be checked
that way the hox0rs can have it their way and the newbies can have it
theirs. 

-k